tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8385052143211121638.post2428418005672816878..comments2023-09-25T02:24:22.087-07:00Comments on Anne R. Allen's Blog: Why You Should Ignore Most of the Advice from your Critique Group…but They Can Help You AnywayAnne R. Allenhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02420000168356370825noreply@blogger.comBlogger85125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8385052143211121638.post-34985597180406032942015-03-16T14:33:14.595-07:002015-03-16T14:33:14.595-07:00Samantha--A certain amount of enforcement can be v...Samantha--A certain amount of enforcement can be very helpful, but you do want to make sure you don't try to make every writer sound exactly like you. Anne R. Allenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02420000168356370825noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8385052143211121638.post-36509362243261314162015-03-16T14:18:54.234-07:002015-03-16T14:18:54.234-07:00It's probably good to know which way you lean ...It's probably good to know which way you lean when critiquing, too. I'm an Enforcer. I just can't help myself sometimes, although I try to keep it under control. But woe be unto any narrative distance found within the pages: I will search and destroy every single one.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05874528798069613694noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8385052143211121638.post-63513203057340975192014-08-11T09:35:42.449-07:002014-08-11T09:35:42.449-07:00Claudia--As Ryan pointed out in his comment, all t...Claudia--As Ryan pointed out in his comment, all these types also write reviews, alas. That's why we need to learn to let most of this roll right off our backs. Everybody's got an agenda. Anne R. Allenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02420000168356370825noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8385052143211121638.post-69846682435644500202014-08-11T00:38:49.918-07:002014-08-11T00:38:49.918-07:00Haha, I can definitely relate to those character t...Haha, I can definitely relate to those character types, even if I've never belonged to a critique group! Pretty much everyone who has read my writing fits into one category or another!Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01429607463809643505noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8385052143211121638.post-7764285006839818942014-08-10T14:05:05.558-07:002014-08-10T14:05:05.558-07:00c2london--It's true that we know a lot less ab...c2london--It's true that we know a lot less about the source we're considering when we're dealing with people online. Reviews are the same way. If we could see the reviewer is actually 12, or is wearing a tinfoil hat, we wouldn't give the reviews as much weight. That's why I like an IRL group. But it does take more time. And it's harder to get out of the real-life ones, sometimes. They both offer good things and have their own drawbacks. <br /><br />Yes. "Just" is usually not needed. Nor are stage directions. Anne R. Allenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02420000168356370825noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8385052143211121638.post-16244279100364668892014-08-10T13:54:39.687-07:002014-08-10T13:54:39.687-07:00I very much appreciate your advice to "always...I very much appreciate your advice to "always consider the source." I'm loathe to enter contests and pay for a critique--I feel the same applies to online groups--because I don't know anything about the person doing the critiquing/giving me a score. Is this a "Golden Girl" who writes about her cats or a 12 year old boy writing space opera? I think it makes a difference. With a flesh and blood group, I can learn what they know and judge the advice they give me. I suppose that would happen with an online group, too, but seeing and interacting with the people in person speeds up the process. Thanks for the in depth look at different types of groups. And I'm one of the people who suggest cutting "just," along with the sitting, turning, walking, etc etc.But not all of it of course.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8385052143211121638.post-10977524952138731432014-08-10T13:48:22.451-07:002014-08-10T13:48:22.451-07:00Dean--Best of luck with your new group! If you go ...Dean--Best of luck with your new group! If you go in with your eyes open, and keep these points in mind, it can help you get the most out of a group, even if it isn't ideal. Anne R. Allenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02420000168356370825noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8385052143211121638.post-42537061316485134372014-08-10T12:35:14.971-07:002014-08-10T12:35:14.971-07:00Anne: Timely and wonderful as I begin a new CG in ...Anne: Timely and wonderful as I begin a new CG in a couple of weeks. It's been two years since my exit from my first CG experience. Tentatively excited and also a bit nervy as well. Wish I had this "list" a couple of years ago!Dean K Millerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02585231102949370872noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8385052143211121638.post-8419110867311752812014-08-10T11:40:58.675-07:002014-08-10T11:40:58.675-07:00Mary Ann--It's wonderful when a group can stay...Mary Ann--It's wonderful when a group can stay together for many years as some of the members transition from amateur to professional. I'm lucky to have a group like that, too. <br /><br />A grammar-police person is always a good addition to a group. There's only a problem when everybody talks grammar and neglects the rest. <br /><br />Cross-talk can work in some groups and not in others. It depends on the strength of the moderator (and the egos involved.)Anne R. Allenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02420000168356370825noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8385052143211121638.post-14907075368744208132014-08-10T11:36:51.294-07:002014-08-10T11:36:51.294-07:00Robert--The "company" factor isn't a...Robert--The "company" factor isn't a small thing. Networking with other writers is so important, and having in-real-life people for support and friendship can make a huge difference in a writer's life. And if your main motivation is to help other writers, that's great. The energy you put out will come back to you. Anne R. Allenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02420000168356370825noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8385052143211121638.post-75191524898153834832014-08-10T11:28:35.188-07:002014-08-10T11:28:35.188-07:00I loved this post, as always.
I'm very fortu...I loved this post, as always. <br /><br />I'm very fortunate in my own critique group. We've been together for several years, with some personnel changes as people have moved away or undergone other life shifts. When we first began meeting, only one of us had been published. Now we have all had work published, and our work continues to improve.<br /><br />Granted, two or three of us qualify as "senior citizens," a term I dislike, and a couple of us are somewhat grammar-obsessed. Still, we rub along quite well. <br /><br />Our group wouldn't work for everyone. We discuss and debate and sometimes argue about various points in the work under consideration. We started out by following the rule that the writer whose work is being critiqued doesn't answer back. That lasted about ten minutes in our first meeting. I suppose as long as we keep producing better and better work, we're doing something right. Mary Annhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12139150094068714313noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8385052143211121638.post-87510744092247881982014-08-10T11:07:01.416-07:002014-08-10T11:07:01.416-07:00Great article. I've recently joined a local gr...Great article. I've recently joined a local group and see several different types there. Your advice on knowing why you're there is spot on. In my case, it's more a company thing than anything, but also a chance to help other writers who might need more in the way of critiques.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01842590589238262306noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8385052143211121638.post-31675198280016107052014-08-10T09:25:09.489-07:002014-08-10T09:25:09.489-07:00Dr, John--LOL the vampire Hamlet. Yup. I know that...Dr, John--LOL the vampire Hamlet. Yup. I know that kind of group. Yes, great moderators are hard to come by, but they don't have to be bestselling authors. Something of the natural teacher has to be there, though. But that's the reason I wrote the post. Even though not every critique group is run by Lawrence Block, you can get some useful stuff out of it if you read between the lines. Anne R. Allenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02420000168356370825noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8385052143211121638.post-37158703918759519312014-08-10T08:47:29.965-07:002014-08-10T08:47:29.965-07:00That's wonderful advice, Anne. It takes me bac...That's wonderful advice, Anne. It takes me back to the first writing group I joined, aeons ago. Everyone was a killer critic. They would have told Shakespeare to drop his Unreliable Narrator, Hamlet, (a bit post-modern, my dear) and cast him as a vampire instead. One intrinsic flaw of writing groups is they're <i>not</i> critique groups. They can deconstruct but not construct. For that, you need a great moderator. But where, in downtown Peoria, do you find a group like that?Dr John Yeomanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03457052363231077457noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8385052143211121638.post-78965693538612084002014-08-07T19:15:53.075-07:002014-08-07T19:15:53.075-07:00Paul-- I think when people are supposed to read in...Paul-- I think when people are supposed to read in advance of a group meeting that happens a lot. Nobody has much time for "homework" except working on their own WIP. <br /><br />I talked about the need for a strong moderator, but I didn't mention the problems of a too-strong (controlling) moderator, who asks for too much "homework" and other things that are off-putting. <br /><br />But it's GREAT to hear how well you've done with online groups. I hear some very good things about them I think it's a lot easier to drop an online group that doesn't work than it is an IRL one. Anne R. Allenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02420000168356370825noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8385052143211121638.post-62517478305470631752014-08-06T21:02:20.469-07:002014-08-06T21:02:20.469-07:00Wonderful advice, Anne. I've only done a few f...Wonderful advice, Anne. I've only done a few face to face groups. One worked and the other didn't. The one that didn't work fits nicely into the Poetry Slam type you mentioned. Members were supposed to read everyone's pages in advance of the group meeting but rarely did. They only concentrated on their own stuff. Then when others read their work, looking for helpful feedback, they tuned out and waited until it was their time to shine. I've had much better success over the years with online critique groups that often provided 15 or 20 crits per story submission. I treated the crits like one would a smorgasbord: Picked what helped and tossed the rest. I've bookmarked quite a few links in this post. Thanks again. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8385052143211121638.post-21922837036052691792014-08-05T19:38:08.920-07:002014-08-05T19:38:08.920-07:00Barry--What lovely people your friends were to ope...Barry--What lovely people your friends were to open up their home to writers when they didn't write themselves. <br /><br />I agree that some people are not constitutionally build to deal with groups. For them, beta readers or--if you can afford them, professional edits--will work better. <br /><br />I'm lucky enough to be in a group of fascinating writers, and I'm always eager to hear the next installment of each WIP. But I have certainly been in groups where there were the works being read didn't exactly hold my interest. Still, I found it helpful to analyze why exactly the pieces didn't work. I often find I learn more from what doesn't work than what does. <br /><br />But we all have different temperaments and patience levels. Critique groups do take a lot of time. I find myself feeling impatient from time to time when I have a looming deadline and critiques seem to be taking too long or drift into irrelevant territory.. <br /><br />As we mature as writers, we often find that one beta or editor is all we need to polish a new book for the marketplace. <br /><br />Next week's post will be all about beta readers and how to find them.Anne R. Allenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02420000168356370825noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8385052143211121638.post-22271613486236481982014-08-05T19:13:52.310-07:002014-08-05T19:13:52.310-07:00Anne-- yours is a remarkably convincing analysis o...Anne-- yours is a remarkably convincing analysis of writing groups. It is clearly the product of long, I would say selfless exposure to your subject. I am sure that for all their flaws, writing groups help a lot of scribblers. But some (I am certain I'm not alone) are just not constitutionally able to belong to them. The reason? Tedium. Listening to a succession of people, some with talent, others devoid of it reading their own work is an ordeal. I belonged to just one group. How you would classify it I'm not sure, probably as a hybrid of two or more of those you categorize. It was run by a husband and wife who didn't write, but enjoyed opening their spacious home to writers. They provided an ideal environment, and graciously supplied things to eat and drink. The group itself was made up of published and unpublished writers--but none of it mattered. The time spent every month listening to others, then trying to come up with something to say that might be useful, then reading my own work and having to sit still for what was mostly confused and not useful commentary--it made me increasingly impatient. I think I finally decided the tedium factor was having a growing, negative influence on my comments on others' writing, and that's when I stopped going.<br />You are right: professional editors are expensive. But for this writer, they are worth their weight in gold, not to mention blood-pressure meds. Barry Knisterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03191575373788669991noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8385052143211121638.post-36798631180333665872014-08-05T16:50:50.416-07:002014-08-05T16:50:50.416-07:00Ryan--You make an important point. All these toxic...Ryan--You make an important point. All these toxic types write REVIEWS! Which is why placing too much emphasis on reader reviews is bad for writers and readers alike. <br /><br />In fact I just got a review on one of my mysteries today that said it had no plot and it was about a bunch of men sitting around swearing. It's got a dead body on page four and a whole lot of subplots and it's a romantic comedy with nothing stronger than 7 "hells" and 10 "damns". I think somebody must have left the review on my page of another book entirely. <br /><br />So readers need to use that shaker of salt, too!<br /><br />And I agree editors come in all these flavors, too. When you're hiring one, it's sooo important to make sure they "get" your voice and your genre or you can be facing a major battle (and an expensive one!) <br /><br />Thanks for the insightful comment!Anne R. Allenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02420000168356370825noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8385052143211121638.post-19228854946815430622014-08-05T15:23:45.972-07:002014-08-05T15:23:45.972-07:00Deborah--Oh, you're so right about the petty t...Deborah--Oh, you're so right about the petty tyrants! I should have mentioned them. Maybe they deserve their own post. They are no-talent or fearful (and sometimes scammy) little despots who are desperate to keep everybody down at their own level. They can be the most dangerous type of all. They can stifle the careers of dozens of writers at the same time. Toxic people.Anne R. Allenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02420000168356370825noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8385052143211121638.post-92177236754872326542014-08-05T15:15:05.492-07:002014-08-05T15:15:05.492-07:00Absolutely!
The last time I agreed to talk to a gr...Absolutely!<br />The last time I agreed to talk to a group, I had to sit through the whole of their normal meeting first, biting my tongue so many times it was quite sore by the time I got to speak. And then, when members showed real interest or asked sensible questions, their moderator hastily reined them in and put them back in their places.<br />Beware the strong-minded group leader who wants only to keep things ticking along on his level, under his control.<br />At least I got paid for my time.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8385052143211121638.post-52964108875984182322014-08-05T10:55:43.403-07:002014-08-05T10:55:43.403-07:00I have a lot of pubbed books out and I've hone...I have a lot of pubbed books out and I've honestly never used a critique groups or even a partner. I've always depended on the editors and copy editors I work with. But I found the list of common deviations fascinating because I have worked with editors who sometimes fall into every category. That's when you learn the art of negotiation :) Also, for some reason, the type of person who will want everything repeated throughout a book, or even the type who wants too much reality, detail, or facts, is also the type who will review a book poorly and make those statements as if they know everything about writing...which is also why it's so important to vet reviews as a reader. ryan fieldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13361694356025572544noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8385052143211121638.post-47644437629992100112014-08-04T15:14:48.576-07:002014-08-04T15:14:48.576-07:00Ian--That's good advice to remember: It's ...Ian--That's good advice to remember: It's YOUR story. When somebody says "I wouldn't write it that way", it's not helpful. Elmore Leonard, Nora Roberts, and JK Rowling probably wouldn't have written it that way either. But you're not them, so it's not relevant.Anne R. Allenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02420000168356370825noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8385052143211121638.post-23558568102095101672014-08-04T15:12:00.512-07:002014-08-04T15:12:00.512-07:00Here's a comment from Ian Martyn, who wrote th...Here's a comment from Ian Martyn, who wrote the critique group piece I quoted in the i intro:<br /><br />"I agree with your caveats around advice and critiques. I had editorial input from a published writer for my first two books. First time was very useful. The second less so as it seemed to be more about 'he wouldn't have told the story that way'. So take advice and then think about it, before making changes, trying to be objective. But at the end of the day remember it is your story to be told your way. I think the more I write the more comfortable I am with that."Anne R. Allenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02420000168356370825noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8385052143211121638.post-72704021917895934462014-08-04T15:11:02.825-07:002014-08-04T15:11:02.825-07:00Natalie--Thanks for the great comment. Long commen...Natalie--Thanks for the great comment. Long comments are more content. We love them! <br /><br />Your first beta reader was not untypical. That's the old "agenda" thing. They prefer a different genre and want to fix your book by rewriting it like their fave reads. I had an agent do that. She'd only accept my mystery if I rewrote it as a romance. It might have sold better, but it would have been a different book. And I wanted to brand myself as a mystery writer. I couldn't see a career for myself as a romance writer.<br /><br />Remember the it's always best to write the first chapter last! Good luck with it. It's the toughest part of the book. Sometimes I spend more time on the first chapter than I do on the whole rest of the book. <br /><br />Sounds like you got the feedback you needed and tossed back the rest. The best policy.Anne R. Allenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02420000168356370825noreply@blogger.com