tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8385052143211121638.post3972073925067528842..comments2023-09-25T02:24:22.087-07:00Comments on Anne R. Allen's Blog: Beware Groupthink: 10 Red Flags to Watch For When Choosing a Critique GroupAnne R. Allenhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02420000168356370825noreply@blogger.comBlogger55125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8385052143211121638.post-82592351184320877272015-09-14T09:24:30.582-07:002015-09-14T09:24:30.582-07:00Kell--It's true that a good writing group is a...Kell--It's true that a good writing group is a gift no writer should take for granted. A good group can give you the equivalent of a good college writing course as well as emotional support and friendship. Anne R. Allenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02420000168356370825noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8385052143211121638.post-18678583198358920882015-09-14T09:22:47.923-07:002015-09-14T09:22:47.923-07:00Leanne--You've been one of my "blogfriend...Leanne--You've been one of my "blogfriends" for a long time. Thanks for keeping me on your blog roll! Anne R. Allenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02420000168356370825noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8385052143211121638.post-71015976200605634812015-09-14T08:56:40.563-07:002015-09-14T08:56:40.563-07:00Another great article. I've seen many of these...Another great article. I've seen many of these types of people in groups, and there is little that turns me off more. An honest, supportive, humble writing group is a blessing, and is definitely one of the best things any writer can ask for.Kellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04764858049646990548noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8385052143211121638.post-517105065229157082015-09-14T08:42:48.479-07:002015-09-14T08:42:48.479-07:00Your success story reads like a dream come true fo...Your success story reads like a dream come true for me, Anne. I especially enjoyed reading how your publishers found you through your blog. <br />I too am an avid blogger and have made valuable connections thanks to my blog.<br />Thank you for creating your blog. It's on my blog roll and I've learned so much from your posts.Author Leanne Dyckhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12886667518427660865noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8385052143211121638.post-83506629239253340762015-09-08T14:00:35.659-07:002015-09-08T14:00:35.659-07:00Thanks, Anne!Thanks, Anne!Dr John Yeomanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03457052363231077457noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8385052143211121638.post-68006574676484974062015-09-08T11:05:23.223-07:002015-09-08T11:05:23.223-07:00Marilyn--It sounds as if you have a group like min...Marilyn--It sounds as if you have a group like mine that has grown together over the years. I agree that people who want every single character to talk as if they have PhDs are not useful for dialogue at all, but sometimes they do find a nit to pick that really helps. <br /><br />People who defend everything can cause chaos in a group, which is why I like the "no cross-talk" rule. Although it does have to be broken when a critiquer is totally off base or mis-heard something. Thanks!Anne R. Allenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02420000168356370825noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8385052143211121638.post-61904790597162109492015-09-08T10:15:59.459-07:002015-09-08T10:15:59.459-07:00I've been in the same critique group for years...I've been in the same critique group for years--people have come and gone. Because I'm the most published I always let the group know that if they didn't tell me what was wrong I'd quit coming. I don't have to agree with every criticism, but sometimes it makes me aware that I do need to do something about whatever it was. I ignore the grammar Nazi especially when she critiques dialogue, but she picks up on lots of other things such as the overuse of a certain word. I consider the group my first editor. Over the years we've had people come who could not take an criticism at all and defended what they'd written, no critique group has time for that. Great post.Marilyn Meredith a.k.a. F. M. Meredithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04179984154939161530noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8385052143211121638.post-11712617425530031482015-09-08T09:53:19.038-07:002015-09-08T09:53:19.038-07:00Tyrean--Christian fantasy and speculative fiction ...Tyrean--Christian fantasy and speculative fiction have a long and distinguished history. I wonder if they would have shunned C.S. Lewis? One of my friends writes Christian YA fantasy and she's with HarperCollins and her books come out in hardcover--a career any of those bigots would kill for. <br /><br />Small minds produce small books. Those people were ridiculously ignorant and couldn't have helped you in any case. I hope you found some more congenial people Anne R. Allenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02420000168356370825noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8385052143211121638.post-22824108238718102582015-09-08T09:38:37.788-07:002015-09-08T09:38:37.788-07:00I've belonged to a few good critique groups an...I've belonged to a few good critique groups and have visited a few awful critique groups, but didn't stay in them. I also had an experience ironically like yours - I had a group of people pull their chairs away from me and snub me at a writer's conference after I admitted that I was writing a Christian Fantasy novel in which faith mattered in the character development. I actually write a variety of speculative fiction but the book I was working on at the time was openly about faith, and I was asked to name my sub-genre of fantasy writing - paranormal, traditional, dystopian, etc. I wasn't trying to evangelize, and I truly don't expect others to share my worldview. However, I didn't expect to get shunned for it, either. Being open-minded means accepting that others have different perspectives and experiences.Tyrean Martinsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15356604721537744361noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8385052143211121638.post-49648664954128936012015-09-08T09:24:43.679-07:002015-09-08T09:24:43.679-07:00Dr. John--I have to admit I've fallen into thi...Dr. John--I have to admit I've fallen into this trap too. It's so easy fall into a rhythm of editing and you start editing everything the same way. <br /><br />That's very funny and also sad that the poor guy tried to "correct" your 16th century style by erasing all the historical flavor. BTW, I am reading one of your historical novels and I find you use just the right balance between modern and Renaissance English that makes everything understandable to to the contemporary reader, but keeps a strong sense of the time period. A great accomplishment. Anne R. Allenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02420000168356370825noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8385052143211121638.post-67025095568785068792015-09-08T09:18:07.415-07:002015-09-08T09:18:07.415-07:00Christine--"Hearing things that aren't th...Christine--"Hearing things that aren't there" can be a big problem. That is the problem with read-aloud groups. People tend to space out and miss something or mis-hear. That's when a little cross-talk is necessary, to explain: no, I wasn't talking about mercy killings. I was talking about young people in China and Japan. That is "Youth in Asia", not "euthanasia." :-) But sometimes they do catch something vital that you didn't explain or glossed over. That's when they're so essential. Anne R. Allenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02420000168356370825noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8385052143211121638.post-84361021170292689222015-09-08T09:09:39.512-07:002015-09-08T09:09:39.512-07:00Sharon--How you use a group depends a lot on your ...Sharon--How you use a group depends a lot on your level of expertise. I still use a read-out-loud group even though I've been a published author for 25 years. But I also use beta readers and critique partners. They accomplish different things. Each pass makes a book or story better. <br /><br />I do think if you're going to be doing nit-picky grammar stuff with hard copy, you need to be in the final stages of editing. Reading out loud works better for a first draft. Anne R. Allenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02420000168356370825noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8385052143211121638.post-1119029621128985232015-09-08T08:10:17.090-07:002015-09-08T08:10:17.090-07:00'Some critiquers are so "helpful" th...'Some critiquers are so "helpful" they try to rewrite your story entirely—to sound exactly like one of theirs.' That's a big trap that even pro copy doctors fall into, Anne. I know. I've done it myself. We forget that every serious author has a unique Voice, and it isn't ours. One nice gentleman, a retired professor, took the trouble to rewrite the first chapter of my historical novel for me - after it was up at Amazon. I couldn't fault his 'corrections'. His modern syntax complied with the Chicago Manual of Style. Problem was, my 16thc narrator hadn't <i>read</i> that manual. He was using the authentic idioms and cadences of Elizabethan London. When I gently pointed that out to my friendly critic, he became quite woebegone...Dr John Yeomanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03457052363231077457noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8385052143211121638.post-32398263586002377472015-09-08T00:23:11.747-07:002015-09-08T00:23:11.747-07:00Hi....reading your comment to Maria really struck ...Hi....reading your comment to Maria really struck home. At first I wasn't sure I'd comment at all. In person critique groups had become too much work for me (I've been in at least four), when committing time to my own writing was difficult enough. The last group was such a burn out, reading four full novels over four months (with markup and comments), that I swore I could never commit to one again. And yes, like Maria's experience, there were some in the group who did little. Another problem is getting the right mix (I'm no longer a beginner). Read aloud groups might work in the early stages, but by the time I share something, I usually need a full critique. I like Alex's setup (first comment) with two critique partners. A writer friend and I have already considered doing so; one more would be just about right. Thanks for tackling such a tough topic. Sharon Himslhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08835934582653243661noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8385052143211121638.post-27251429708576934172015-09-07T13:05:04.851-07:002015-09-07T13:05:04.851-07:00Great points. I am so lucky to have my two groups....Great points. I am so lucky to have my two groups. They keep me focused. I am a real pantser and I get off track sometimes. They help me to see important things like when my protagonist isn't being herself. They know even when I don't. And, sometimes they hear things that just aren't there! The eye of the beholder; the ear of the listener. I hope anyone who is thinking about joining a group reads this post first. Christine Ahernhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18332152375980196208noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8385052143211121638.post-70961636296482950612015-09-07T10:20:15.117-07:002015-09-07T10:20:15.117-07:00Claude--A psychologist friend said that on FB: the...Claude--A psychologist friend said that on FB: these things all apply to group therapy, too. Thanks for buying Ghostwriters! I hope you enjoy it!Anne R. Allenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02420000168356370825noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8385052143211121638.post-34782951004533565342015-09-07T10:14:51.637-07:002015-09-07T10:14:51.637-07:00Lissa--That Bozo didn't seem drunk. But he may...Lissa--That Bozo didn't seem drunk. But he may have been suffering from testosterone poisoning. He was all bulked up like a weightlifter and had terrible acne and was completely bald. All signs of taking anabolic steroids. <br /><br />I forgot to mention NaNo! Lots of groups form through NaNoWriMo. It can be a good resource. But you're right that if people are too diverse in experience and genre, they can't help each other much. I hope you find a group through Meetup. But it probably won't be like that first group, where you had a strong mentor and a genre-specific group. Groups like that can be golden.Anne R. Allenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02420000168356370825noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8385052143211121638.post-33079169331844648582015-09-07T09:52:41.200-07:002015-09-07T09:52:41.200-07:00Great list - it actually applies beyond the writin...Great list - it actually applies beyond the writing life, to any group/team focused on achieving something together. And, btw, I bought your book, couldn't resist! And I'm very happy to read the first one in the series, I always think the first book is particularly fascinating...Claude Forthommehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03871790739257823515noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8385052143211121638.post-48161947682330462032015-09-07T06:11:46.281-07:002015-09-07T06:11:46.281-07:00Anne I am still in shock about the parking lot inc...Anne I am still in shock about the parking lot incident. Was he drunk? Good grief. As for the actual topic at hand - I was just telling another writer friend how much I miss my old critique group. We formed as a subset of the Minnesota SCBWI chapter years ago. There was one experienced, published writer who kindly shepherded the rest of us newbies. It was a group made in Writer Heaven. Over time we all went our separate ways due to life's demands, but I miss their vibe and support and insightful encouragement something awful. I have been half-heartedly poking around for something local without much luck. Met with some folks via a NaNoWriMo subgroup a while back, but we were too all-over-the-map in genre and experience. Let's just say I didn't own the requisite Goth attire. I haven't tried the Meetup idea however - good tip.LissaJhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11584807385075888865noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8385052143211121638.post-45592015396007658872015-09-07T06:03:23.087-07:002015-09-07T06:03:23.087-07:00Brant I don't think they're plotting your ...Brant I don't think they're plotting your deaths LOL. They're probably doing the writer's version of dine-n-dash - just wanted to get a free editing session :)LissaJhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11584807385075888865noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8385052143211121638.post-14953596853547250782015-09-06T20:45:10.124-07:002015-09-06T20:45:10.124-07:00Melodie--You've said it very well. We need to ...Melodie--You've said it very well. We need to be so careful. Very kind of you to moderate a group as a volunteer. I'm sure you're helping a lot of new writers find their footing. Learning to give helpful critiques takes work. We need empathy and knowledge in equal parts. Anne R. Allenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02420000168356370825noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8385052143211121638.post-47848977224534766382015-09-06T20:42:53.683-07:002015-09-06T20:42:53.683-07:00D. G.--Those sound like awful experiences. I'm...D. G.--Those sound like awful experiences. I'm glad you found a good mentor on the second try. Anne R. Allenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02420000168356370825noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8385052143211121638.post-52605212359543279212015-09-06T18:42:41.560-07:002015-09-06T18:42:41.560-07:00Anne, for three years, I have moderated a writers&...Anne, for three years, I have moderated a writers' circle at our city library, as part of my 'paying it forward' volunteer work. In that time, I have come to realize how critical it is to have a kind person at the helm. Almost every month, I have had to step in to prevent feelings from being hurt. It alarms me, and makes me caution my own college writing students to be wary of who they choose to share their work with.Melodie Campbellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07870938103759179132noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8385052143211121638.post-24037234165611599182015-09-06T17:46:10.296-07:002015-09-06T17:46:10.296-07:00I've never joined a critique group because I s...I've never joined a critique group because I suffered the stings and arrows of groupthink critique in 1) an online course of a well-known company where several in the group tried to control the group; AND in a mentoring situation I was privileged to get I had to complain and be re-matched with another mentor after the first one did a one-two punch on my story and said we're done. This was a 6 week or more mentoring matchup, but the first mentor wanted to work on her own novel. The second mentor was excellent. It's like teaching, some can do it, and some cannot, regardless of how much they know.D.G. Hudsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06213237734772028645noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8385052143211121638.post-73213458572295468292015-09-06T17:07:55.118-07:002015-09-06T17:07:55.118-07:00Tori--That happens to me often. I'm always so ...Tori--That happens to me often. I'm always so amazed. How do they think they're going to write books if they don't even read them? Anne R. Allenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02420000168356370825noreply@blogger.com