tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8385052143211121638.post6717990310290412159..comments2023-09-25T02:24:22.087-07:00Comments on Anne R. Allen's Blog: 25 Must-Read Tips on Plotting from Top Authors and Editors Anne R. Allenhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02420000168356370825noreply@blogger.comBlogger71125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8385052143211121638.post-87256186102919640432015-02-11T12:39:05.720-08:002015-02-11T12:39:05.720-08:00Melanie--Thanks! I really appreciate all the work ...Melanie--Thanks! I really appreciate all the work M.J. put into this. It's so helpful and inspiring.Anne R. Allenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02420000168356370825noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8385052143211121638.post-28402455323827983912015-02-11T12:30:52.892-08:002015-02-11T12:30:52.892-08:00This post is excellent! Very helpful for me to th...This post is excellent! Very helpful for me to think over and make adjustments to my writing. Thanks Anne for sharing!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8385052143211121638.post-52859690798004635602015-02-01T17:28:19.187-08:002015-02-01T17:28:19.187-08:00Brandon--Thanks so much! We really appreciate our ...Brandon--Thanks so much! We really appreciate our readers. And yes, I agree, MJ did some wonderful work compiling these fantastic quotes and links. I know a lot of research went into this post!Anne R. Allenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02420000168356370825noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8385052143211121638.post-55743875537710124292015-02-01T17:18:54.369-08:002015-02-01T17:18:54.369-08:00This blog is by far one of the best resources I...This blog is by far one of the best resources I've been able to find for writers, both new and experienced. Thank you for your amazing work Anne and Ruth. A big thank you also goes to M. J. Bush for compiling these great tips with links to the material that goes in to more detail.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08871939708245605230noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8385052143211121638.post-33224885970251740252014-12-29T10:27:55.659-08:002014-12-29T10:27:55.659-08:00Good luck with your WIP, Lexa. I'm sure the al...Good luck with your WIP, Lexa. I'm sure the all-is-lost moment will appear. And have a wonderful year!Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01756355760050710479noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8385052143211121638.post-3927406411260371852014-12-28T11:02:09.182-08:002014-12-28T11:02:09.182-08:00Love these! And I gave a great sigh of relief ever...Love these! And I gave a great sigh of relief every time I realized I could find each plot point/device in my ms outline. Except the "All is Lost" point. I had one in my last book. Maybe it will appear in my new WIP as I go on. <br /><br />I'm wishing Anne, Ruth, and MJ, and their families a wonderful 2015!Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07735576044552810103noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8385052143211121638.post-10376135724025702122014-12-27T10:08:16.287-08:002014-12-27T10:08:16.287-08:00Hi, Anne. I've been a (ashamedly, nonactive) f...Hi, Anne. I've been a (ashamedly, nonactive) follower for years. I'm polishing a book for publication. The song Desperado makes my opening scene, and your blog post a while back is the ONLY resource that clearly spells out how to get permission for song lyrics. Yet I'm not finding the publisher; I'm learning everything else I never wanted to know about the song. I'm also not finding Michael Murphy's blog/site, anything. (He gave input on that post.) Oy vey. This is my long-winded way of asking if you wouldn't mind taking time in your very busy schedule to check in with me. I'd like to pick your brain, if you're willing. Rawknrobyn@aol.com. Otherwise, if you have a contact for Michael, that'd be great. Or any other link to a music database besides the two you wrote about (ASCAP and BMI). THANK YOU SO MUCH. I didn't realize it'd cause such a migraine to incorporate song lyrics. <br /><br />Have a great season and New Year. Thank you again, for at least, reading thru this. =) xoRawknrobyn.blogspot.comhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15997241410192066577noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8385052143211121638.post-85148394884253678322014-12-26T11:13:11.921-08:002014-12-26T11:13:11.921-08:00Thanks, Nina! =)Thanks, Nina! =)Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01756355760050710479noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8385052143211121638.post-37375343867092098642014-12-26T11:12:46.384-08:002014-12-26T11:12:46.384-08:00You've just pointed out a piece of wisdom that...You've just pointed out a piece of wisdom that many authors miss. "The writer needs an editor who is compatible with the what that writer is trying to do." Absolutely. There's so much advice out there to ask for a sample edit, but what I see as even more important is seeing if they can understand why you wrote the story the way it is and whether they can differentiate between what would be "flesh wound" changes and what would mortally injure your story. But sometimes an author loses sight of that, and a great editor will put the writer back in touch with it before suggesting changes. Sorry, a bit off topic.<br />Great comments, Barry. =)Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01756355760050710479noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8385052143211121638.post-66469634147257789662014-12-26T11:03:22.263-08:002014-12-26T11:03:22.263-08:00Hi Linda =)
I think part of the problem here is a ...Hi Linda =)<br />I think part of the problem here is a misconception about process... there are more variables than simply outlining or pantsing. Our minds can work in many different ways. If you can't think in terms of plot moments, but you think in terms of escalating the story, that's fine.<br />I think that you might find one or two of the quotes valuable, specifically 5, 8, 9, 11, and 13. Those are at about the same level of "plotterness" as escalating as you go along... raising questions and answering them, brainstorming to avoid the predictable, making coincidences add complications, watching for moments when the reader might want to put the book down, and revealing new information regularly. None of those things should be limited to plotters or even pantsers that think in terms of plot.<br />May the muse be with you! =)<br />Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01756355760050710479noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8385052143211121638.post-86746278305802348842014-12-26T10:48:35.825-08:002014-12-26T10:48:35.825-08:00*Offers a bandage*
I'm glad I can help, Anna!*Offers a bandage*<br />I'm glad I can help, Anna!Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01756355760050710479noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8385052143211121638.post-71277181698679664402014-12-25T16:12:00.995-08:002014-12-25T16:12:00.995-08:00Nina--Thanks! I thought MJ did a great job!Nina--Thanks! I thought MJ did a great job!Anne R. Allenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02420000168356370825noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8385052143211121638.post-25384115661363206962014-12-25T14:13:31.961-08:002014-12-25T14:13:31.961-08:00Wow!! This is so great. Wow!! This is so great. Nina Bhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05498476430955493398noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8385052143211121638.post-29264736265878797552014-12-25T10:48:45.343-08:002014-12-25T10:48:45.343-08:00That's why I raised the point because the outl...That's why I raised the point because the outlining techniques go all the way through with everything -- from the creation stage to editing and revision. It's so prevalent I don't think many people even realize that it's there. Three to five years ago, I would have read your comment about finding these useful and tried some out, thinking it would have helped me. And then I would have thought I was broken because they seemed to work for everyone else but me, and all I had was a story that had twisted into a horrible twenty car pile up (and I wish I could say I was exaggerating). I wandered the message boards and blogs looking for something to help me, and the only thing I started to conclude was my writing was completely broken. I wished someone had said the things I'm saying so I would have known the problem wasn't me. The techniques may not be used for creation of an outline, but they are strongly rooted in what makes outlines.Linda Maye Adamshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07203020058437093901noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8385052143211121638.post-18590739615720634072014-12-25T09:05:50.415-08:002014-12-25T09:05:50.415-08:00Anne--
Thanks for correcting my correction. Being ...Anne--<br />Thanks for correcting my correction. Being bald, I'm not very au courant about gel, but I am on good terms with both jelly and Jell-O.Barry Knisterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03191575373788669991noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8385052143211121638.post-33557814185228461092014-12-25T08:57:59.977-08:002014-12-25T08:57:59.977-08:00Linda this post does not have to do with with outl...Linda this post does not have to do with with outlining. It has to do with editing. I'm a pantser and I find this all very useful when writing my final draft. These are the tips of 25 different experts to use or not use when you edit as you see fit. Whether you decide to edit your work or not is entirely up to you. Merry Christmas!Anne R. Allenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02420000168356370825noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8385052143211121638.post-27620854815509096622014-12-25T08:48:28.712-08:002014-12-25T08:48:28.712-08:00Barry--Thanks! Actually both "gel and "...Barry--Thanks! Actually both "gel and "jell" are correct. It depends on whether you're talking about making a fruit product to put on toast or a hair product or a scientific lab product. When you're making "jelly" you wait for the mixture "to jell"--that is, solidify, which is the older word. Google the word and "definition" and you'll see that jelly jells.<br /><br />Putting product on your hair is "gelling". It is also what some products used for bacterial cultures do in the lab. Here's dictionary.com on the word "gelling," which is a more recent word: "The invention of this word is credited to Scottish chemist Thomas Graham (1805-1869). Hair-styling sense is from 1958. The verb meaning "to become a gel" is attested by 1902; figurative sense is from 1958."<br /><br />Suzanne Lakin may have more experience making jelly than putting product in her hair or making lab cultures. But both uses would be correct in this context.Anne R. Allenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02420000168356370825noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8385052143211121638.post-46718246894737972782014-12-25T06:19:03.034-08:002014-12-25T06:19:03.034-08:00This comment has been removed by the author.Barry Knisterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03191575373788669991noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8385052143211121638.post-61781218781446007612014-12-25T04:48:00.743-08:002014-12-25T04:48:00.743-08:00Anne, why are you assuming that I don't have a...Anne, why are you assuming that I don't have a plot because I didn't use any of the techniques above? That's the problem with outlining advice like that. It assumes you don't have a plot if you don't use them, and that's flat wrong. You don't need plot points or structure to get plot. If you tell a story and escalate events in the story with each scene, you will have plot. This is why I keep saying that there's a chasm between panters and outliners. Outliners think it's stream of conscious if you don't map out plot points first, because that's how they're used to thinking. They don't see that there might be an entirely different way of writing that doesn't use the same techniques but accomplishes the same thing.<br /><br />For the record: My story is a contemporary fantasy. A god wants to cause some mischief which would be disastrous for the island, and the main character has to stop him. When I wrote it at the beginning, I did not know ANY of that. All I knew was that I wanted to have monsters, and that the main character was going to fight them. I had to make sure NONE of the backstory from past incarnations got into the story. In the mystery I'm now writing (first chapter), all I know is that my main character is in this location. I'm letting the why wander into the story as it wants to, but I'm having to fight to keep left brain from coming up with a backstory because it will derail the story in the first chapter. I don't know will be murdered, I don't know who will be the murderer. I think there will be an actor and a dog in the story, but I could be wrong. I also think there will be a big storm in the story, but that could change as I move out of chapter 1. All of what I need will come in when it's supposed. I trust my writing process to do that.Linda Maye Adamshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07203020058437093901noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8385052143211121638.post-63925690661454583712014-12-24T19:41:00.834-08:002014-12-24T19:41:00.834-08:00Linda--Congrats on finding readers who enjoy readi...Linda--Congrats on finding readers who enjoy reading books with no plots! I do know some experimental authors like Donald Barthelme have had successful careers writing unplotted, non-narrative stream of consciousness stuff. You must be a very talented poetic writer.Anne R. Allenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02420000168356370825noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8385052143211121638.post-12554939258772995942014-12-24T17:37:06.912-08:002014-12-24T17:37:06.912-08:00Weeellll, I gotta to dispute that. All of the adv...Weeellll, I gotta to dispute that. All of the advice above is for outliners. A lot of outliners think it fits everyone, and it doesn't. When I ran into two successful writers who don't outline, I was astonished to see that there was someone like me! I tossed out all the how-to advice like structure, know your plot points, know your backstory, and I wrote a solid book in 5 months. It just needs a clean up edit for typos, continuity, and dumb stuff. If I'd tried plot points, I'd have a mess. The two processes are very different and don't connect to each other.Linda Maye Adamshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07203020058437093901noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8385052143211121638.post-71147885722856122042014-12-24T16:27:01.674-08:002014-12-24T16:27:01.674-08:00Barry--We do need editors, but a writer can do a l...Barry--We do need editors, but a writer can do a lot of self-editing by using guidelines like this. That can save money and give us more control.<br /><br />I write cross-genre novels so I know the problem. But I have avoided editors who want me to over-simplify my stories. Crossing genres makes me more of a niche writer than a blockbuster writer, but I'm okay with that. Anne R. Allenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02420000168356370825noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8385052143211121638.post-79823726475598102762014-12-24T16:23:01.811-08:002014-12-24T16:23:01.811-08:00Anna--I'm so glad MJ's post helped you!Anna--I'm so glad MJ's post helped you!Anne R. Allenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02420000168356370825noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8385052143211121638.post-49033612940726347732014-12-24T16:22:07.538-08:002014-12-24T16:22:07.538-08:00Linda--These quotes are helpful for anybody who is...Linda--These quotes are helpful for anybody who is interested in writing a novel that has a plot . They don't tell you how to write your rough draft. Most of these quotes will help you polish that draft. Some people may pay editors to shape their raw words into a story, but that can run into a lot of money, so this can be helpful whether you're a pantser or an outliner.<br /><br />This post is not just about "plotting" (the verb), but *editing* your manuscript so it has a "plot" (the noun). Most readers prefer books with plots, no matter what process the author uses to get the words on the page. Plot-free novels usually have a limited audience.Anne R. Allenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02420000168356370825noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8385052143211121638.post-75150193801827571462014-12-24T07:34:21.481-08:002014-12-24T07:34:21.481-08:00Anne--
Thanks to you, and to M.J.Bush for these to...Anne--<br />Thanks to you, and to M.J.Bush for these touchstones of useful insight. Everything here reinforces my certainty that there is no substitute for a reliable, experienced editor, someone who can see what the writer can't. But it's really tough to find such an editor--not because there aren't lots of good ones, but because the writer needs an editor who is compatible with the what that writer is trying to do. The plot for a novel that emphasizes psychology will certainly be different from one that is driven by external, action-oriented events. Or so it seems to me. I've been working lately with two editors. One "gets" what I'm up to. The other--a very, very smart person--has in mind changes in the plot . These changes are intended to reduce the commercial difficulties facing books that cross or cross-pollinate genres. But if I agree to these changes, the story I want to tell will be less complex, and (in my view) less interesting. This means I have to choose: will I alter the story I want to tell in order to improve the commercial odds, or will I stick with the story I want to tell? Barry Knisterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03191575373788669991noreply@blogger.com