tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8385052143211121638.post7972779093463940643..comments2023-09-25T02:24:22.087-07:00Comments on Anne R. Allen's Blog: The Biggest Problem Facing the Beginning Novelist—And 6 Tips for Avoiding ItAnne R. Allenhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02420000168356370825noreply@blogger.comBlogger37125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8385052143211121638.post-4524946686705905052013-01-04T17:23:46.405-08:002013-01-04T17:23:46.405-08:00Claude--Sorry I didn't get back to this post. ...Claude--Sorry I didn't get back to this post. Thanks for the great comment. I start writing with characters, too. I usually write some character sketches before I jump into writing the novel. You may be doing that too without realizing it. I don't always write the whole last scene--I just keep it in mind as I write the opener. It's the goal I'm aiming for. Obviously, this is easier with a mystery, since it's the big whodunnit moment. But I've done it for more literary novels, too.<br /><br />Kathryn--I refer to my copy of STORY all the time, but I bought it when it cost about $13, so the price shocked me. But yes, it's a great book.<br /><br />Kelly--Thanks much. If I can keep one new writer from writing herself into a corner, this post has succeeded.Anne R. Allenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02420000168356370825noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8385052143211121638.post-37900247603509042372013-01-04T14:55:57.320-08:002013-01-04T14:55:57.320-08:00I just wanted to let you know hoe much I appreciat...I just wanted to let you know hoe much I appreciated this post and that I recommended it on my blog for beginning writers.Kelly Leiterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00786588746604360875noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8385052143211121638.post-83522642962023140262012-12-09T15:15:00.466-08:002012-12-09T15:15:00.466-08:00STORY by McKee is well worth its $35 price tag. Yo...STORY by McKee is well worth its $35 price tag. You'll refer to it again and again. Think of it this way: these days, it's cheap for a textbook, and will give you what you need to know about story structure!Kathryn Crafthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08371458857187160425noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8385052143211121638.post-26524390725929708802012-11-17T10:51:05.516-08:002012-11-17T10:51:05.516-08:00What a great post and comments thread too! What a ...What a great post and comments thread too! What a splendid job you've done, Anne, I always enjoy your blog...and learn from it!<br /><br />I've been writing now...for what, 15 years maybe? But in a continuous fashion only for 6 years (since I retired - I had a first phase as a painter then I retired from that too and came back to writing!) <br /><br />So I guess I still have a lot to learn. I love your idea that one should start by writing the novel's LAST SCENE! Great suggestion! I've never done it, but I suspect it would help to keep a direction (I don't do outlines so I tend to go in very many directions before settling down to a sort of routine of daily writing that brings me to the end of the novel...) I'll definitely try that the next time.<br /><br />My problem you see is that I don't start with a story line but with a CHARACTER - one main character that I feel like exploring in depth making it go through a series of events that are really "slices of life". So the events have to be credible, probable and impact the character to make the story move forward.<br /><br />In other words, it takes times for a story of this type to "mature" - and you may well be right: if I jump ahead and try my hand at the final scene, it might bring out sooner some major features (that would come out anyway because of the internal logic of the novel) but it might act as a "forcing out".<br /><br />At least I hope so. Will let you know after I've tried it! Claude Forthommehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03871790739257823515noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8385052143211121638.post-19484932913072340542012-11-14T10:43:11.268-08:002012-11-14T10:43:11.268-08:00Handy--Congrats on "getting it" early en...Handy--Congrats on "getting it" early enough in your career that you haven't spent years trying to market a non-novel the way I did!<br /><br />Meghan--Memoirists have it MUCH harder. Life doesn't happen in story arcs, so you have to be very creative in molding the facts into a story without actually altering those facts. I'm in awe of anybody who can do it. Can't wait to read your memoir!Anne R. Allenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02420000168356370825noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8385052143211121638.post-37412688417816672102012-11-14T10:14:14.052-08:002012-11-14T10:14:14.052-08:00These are wonderful tips for memoir writers, too, ...These are wonderful tips for memoir writers, too, Anne. I spent years transforming my memoir from a series of episodes into a story arc, and I'm facing that challenge again with memoir two. <br /><br />"Story" is a fantastic resource, as is "How to Write a Damn Good Novel."Meghan Wardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12773598501857799104noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8385052143211121638.post-35847900637832117312012-11-13T19:47:54.770-08:002012-11-13T19:47:54.770-08:00Newbie writer here. Guilty as charged, but I figu...Newbie writer here. Guilty as charged, but I figured this out over the summer and I've been working to fix it. Great post!Handy Man, Crafty Womanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04304255281099070540noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8385052143211121638.post-25106392785503399222012-11-13T09:54:21.959-08:002012-11-13T09:54:21.959-08:00Dale--And absolutely, I'd love a signed copy o...Dale--And absolutely, I'd love a signed copy of your book! Anne R. Allenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02420000168356370825noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8385052143211121638.post-55235649595004574172012-11-13T09:53:17.775-08:002012-11-13T09:53:17.775-08:00Lisa--The "one problem leads to the next"...Lisa--The "one problem leads to the next" is a biggie for me. Once I got that down, plotting was a lot easier. But you're right that in a mystery there has to be some start-and-stop, because we need red herrings and false clues. But just keep one element going even though the sleuth has reached a dead end in the investigation.<br /><br />Dale--I'm so glad this led to an epiphany for your book. I love to hear stuff like that! But for other readers, I should probably have made it more clear that the antagonist doesn't have to be human. It can be a political system or an addiction or even the weather (as in The Perfect Storm). But it has to be the same force through the entire book. Your MC can't "win" the big battle until the end. <br /><br />Anne R. Allenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02420000168356370825noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8385052143211121638.post-25885665333058826222012-11-13T09:20:39.140-08:002012-11-13T09:20:39.140-08:00Wow- thank you so much-- you gave me an epiphany. ...Wow- thank you so much-- you gave me an epiphany. Despite a pair of successful published mysteries and a number of good story collections, my first novel, with horror overtones, has been languishing in a drawer. Just couldn't figure out how to take it from "eh" to "wow!" <br />Duh- did not have a strong antagonist to give it oomph. Protag was struggling, but not against human opponent. Now I know what direction to take, and the pieces just fell into place. I've been wanting this done and released, and now I can do it. Bless you.<br />By way of thanks, can I send you a signed copy when it's out? Dale T. Phillipshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14792295949745520240noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8385052143211121638.post-6944912959064661732012-11-12T19:13:04.595-08:002012-11-12T19:13:04.595-08:00I like the tip of one problem leading to the next....I like the tip of one problem leading to the next. Frequently my writing feels episodic and I think it's the scene/sequel or action/reaction formula, especially for mysteries. It feels like a start and stop, if that makes sense. Doesn't seem to matter if the reaction is internal or external, or if these steps build toward the conclusion and are true to the plot. The stop and start still leaves me feeling the episode quandary.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8385052143211121638.post-69677783165573989562012-11-12T14:11:40.662-08:002012-11-12T14:11:40.662-08:00Cathy--You've hit on the problem: you need to ...Cathy--You've hit on the problem: you need to say WHY these things are happening. Otherwise your reader goes, "so what?" <br /><br />Emily--It's good to hear your tutor gave the same advice. It's something I learned by trial and error. Lots of error. :-)<br /><br />Thom--Thanks for coming back and educating us. I assumed teleplays were like screenplays, but I see they're more like classic plays, if they have a 4 act structure. <br /><br />I admire TV writers greatly. I think shows like Dexter are on the cutting edge of our culture's creativity, while film seems to be falling into the same old tropes. Most of what I rent on Netflix is TV series dramas. <br /><br />Novel-writers can learn a whole lot from watching good television--like when to cut away from a scene (we tend to linger too long) and how to keep dialogue exchanges short and dynamic. <br /><br />BUT--and this is a big but: a novel is not a teleplay. Too many new writers try to write novels in imitation of TV shows. But there are a lot of differences. (No value judgments here: I'm just saying that they're not identical.) Novelists need to pay more attention to things like interior monologue and point of view. Many new novelists try to write from a camera's-eye viewpoint and that makes for a cold and unengaging novel.Anne R. Allenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02420000168356370825noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8385052143211121638.post-40584338748365493632012-11-12T13:25:37.910-08:002012-11-12T13:25:37.910-08:00Anne:
Thanks for your reply. No offense was taken...Anne:<br /><br />Thanks for your reply. No offense was taken! I understand you are trying to help novelists improve the quality of their work. We do the same thing with TV writers :-)<br /><br />As a way of clarification and in the interest of understanding and fellowship, a few observations:<br /><br />1. Hour TV is written as a four act structure. Half hour a three, but more traditionally, a two act structure.<br /><br />2.Unlike the LUCY and GUNSMOKE days, TV now has both a continuing season storyline, and self contained story. (@Churadogs, you're thinking of <i>Hill St Blues</i> but there were shows before it that used continuing story.) <br /><br />3. You are correct that TV often does not do endings well, because we are designed, as a practical matter--never to end! Often the endings are rushed or under stress because of cancellations and other network pressures. But I believe we do <i>season endings</i> very well; one only has to look at DEXTER to see how a show can have a season arc, self contained stories, and finish the season with a satisfying ending.<br /><br />For the record, I'm retired from active TV writing. (I'm an old guy who does remember LUCY!) I hope writers can learn from all forms of writing. I can see the influence of television structure in novels, and it's not always a negative influence! :-)<br /><br />Kind Regards,<br /><br />Thom BrayThom "Pappy" Bhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07989134791098075882noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8385052143211121638.post-39258630261104876392012-11-12T10:17:59.603-08:002012-11-12T10:17:59.603-08:00Great advice Anne!! I'm actually going to prin...Great advice Anne!! I'm actually going to print this post out and stick it to my noticeboard! <br /><br />I always start at the end (oddly the first scene that comes to mind for me is the end). At a 'how to start a novel' the tutor gave similar advice for those who never finish their MS - "write your last paragraph. Now you just have to fill in the middle to finish your book. "<br /><br />Emily Crosshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01707967073095394090noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8385052143211121638.post-84306359913027521672012-11-12T09:45:34.971-08:002012-11-12T09:45:34.971-08:00Fantastic advice. My first few novels were rubbish...Fantastic advice. My first few novels were rubbish. I'd start, have amazing things happen, then run into trouble because I had no idea why everything happened. I always keep the end in mind now.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8385052143211121638.post-82045655437601052862012-11-12T09:33:38.716-08:002012-11-12T09:33:38.716-08:00C.S. Thanks much!
Margaret--Thanks for mentioning...C.S. Thanks much!<br /><br />Margaret--Thanks for mentioning SAVE THE CAT. I've heard it's great, but I haven't read it yet myself. I probably should. I'm still fighting structure problems.<br /><br />Churadogs--HILL STREET BLUES!!! Yes! I was trying to remember when the season story arc started. I think that might have been the beginning. Before that, even drama series didn't have arcs (except soaps like Dallas or Dynasty) Thanks for the memory-jog.<br /><br />Fois--Making sure I had the end in mind is certainly what made all the difference to me. And thanks for commenting over at Write it Sideways! Debra is a great interviewer.<br /><br />Chemist--"A bunch of scenes with no plot." Yup. That's what I used to write. Such lovely scenes, too... Just nothing holding them together.<br /><br />Julie--James Scott Bell: "Plot and Structure" I'll check it out. Thanks much for the tip!Anne R. Allenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02420000168356370825noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8385052143211121638.post-37109388388149521012012-11-12T07:44:41.090-08:002012-11-12T07:44:41.090-08:00Great advice. I learned a lot from James Scott Bel...Great advice. I learned a lot from James Scott Bell's Plot & Structure. The two books I wrote before reading that craft book were a mess. Julie Musilhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02150454913885915017noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8385052143211121638.post-36627359699016294412012-11-12T07:05:01.277-08:002012-11-12T07:05:01.277-08:00When I began my first story, all I had were a bunc...When I began my first story, all I had were a bunch of scenes with no plot. I eventually weaved the scenes together into a plot, but it took a lot of time and effort, and the scenes had to undergo significant changes. So I've learned my lesson about having the ending in mind before I start writing.<br /><br />Thanks to NaNo, I will soon be finding out how well this new process works for me.Chemist Kenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09738272332470397248noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8385052143211121638.post-39469086982202396762012-11-12T06:45:50.499-08:002012-11-12T06:45:50.499-08:00Anne ... much thanks for yet another great post. I...Anne ... much thanks for yet another great post. I think I have to come here every week to get my "fix" and to learn not only about the blog, but about the structure of our work.<br /><br />I always have the end in sight. The beginning usually moves from first to third chapter in the final draft and the middle does a lot of twisting and turning. But having the end somewhere in my head and in my note files, keeps me focued on the goal. In a series, I also love to leave supporting characters hanging off somewhere to create a platform for getting back to them later.<br /><br />Thanks again. Now I am off to catch up to your guest blog: http://writeitsideways.com/?awt_l=5SK8R&awt_m=3mriVDbsSHfdfaC. Hosted by another dear friend, Debra.<br />fOIS In The Cityhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06347958777030988677noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8385052143211121638.post-82866188350285114162012-11-12T05:31:38.209-08:002012-11-12T05:31:38.209-08:00Fabulous post. It's really been a treat watch...Fabulous post. It's really been a treat watching this blog begin and grow and turn into a blog that's always worth reading; informative, witty, just plain interesting, even to somebody not in The Biz.<br /><br />Re TV series with ongoing story arcs. What was the first drama series (besides soap operas) that first started an ongoing story arch. What I remember was it was a multi-character cop show, with the watch captain constantly telling his men (each week) at the daily briefing, "Be careful out there." Think it predated NYPD Blue? anybody know if there was another series that did that? I know it was noted at the time as something "new" and concern expressed that the audience wouldn't follow those long intertwined plot lines. Now, it seems totally a given for any season.<br /><br />As for TV series with bad endings. We'll have to hold judgement on "Breaking Bad." Until it actually does end. Right now, it seems to be in the "Past it's sell-by date" mode. But the author has promised a "all strings tied up" final ending, so we'll see. Churadogshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17701649330085709021noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8385052143211121638.post-45739801343303912542012-11-12T05:14:50.922-08:002012-11-12T05:14:50.922-08:00Another great book on structure is SAVE THE CAT by...Another great book on structure is SAVE THE CAT by Blake Snyder. It's aimed at screenwriters, but every novelist I know loves it.Margaret Yanghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06464624057491288244noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8385052143211121638.post-48196846912110207862012-11-11T19:34:56.613-08:002012-11-11T19:34:56.613-08:00Dearest Miss Allen (or should I say Ms. Deforges),...Dearest Miss Allen (or should I say Ms. Deforges),<br />Bravo to another fine post. And that David Keith review is fantabuloso. Here's hoping the world reads Sherwood Ltd & is compelled afterward to read the others. CS Perryesshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03086127005229652995noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8385052143211121638.post-12976107499142892462012-11-11T17:17:16.689-08:002012-11-11T17:17:16.689-08:00Thom--So sorry if I seemed to be casting aspersion...Thom--So sorry if I seemed to be casting aspersions on TV writers. Not what I meant at all. (Although I'm still annoyed about Lost :-)) Do note I advise reading Robert McKee for story structure, and I'm very aware that a TV episode does need a 3-act structure. But the TV shows some of us grew up with didn't have story arcs for a whole season. If you write for TV now, you're probably a couple of generations younger than me, so you may not remember shows like I Love Lucy or Happy Days, but those are hard-wired to a lot of people's brains. The episodes stand alone. <br /><br />Denise--So glad it helps. Soooo smart to start your NaNo novel at the end! Good luck. I hope you win!Anne R. Allenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02420000168356370825noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8385052143211121638.post-26838109876875661212012-11-11T16:55:18.406-08:002012-11-11T16:55:18.406-08:00As always Anne, your post is pure gold. I relate t...As always Anne, your post is pure gold. I relate to most of it. I actually wrote the ending (which probably won't actually be the ending) to my latest NaNo novel first, at least I have a goal and can make sure the story reflects that. Denise Covey https://www.blogger.com/profile/07106490051555233439noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8385052143211121638.post-63032690448142406632012-11-11T15:48:06.711-08:002012-11-11T15:48:06.711-08:00While I appreciate the general advice aimed toward...While I appreciate the general advice aimed towards novelists, I disagree with the premise that TV writing is somehow different.<br /><br />Unlike the claim made here, most television scripts cannot be thrown into a blender and be none the worse for jumbling.<br /><br />In my years writing, and now teaching, television writing, I can say with certainty that one scene does indeed build upon another in a TV script. At least it does in a well written TV script.<br /><br />The difference with a TV show and a novel is we may have nine seasons to explore our characters. But I can assure you that television writers are very much aware that one scene must generate the problem for the next. <br /><br />Some shows are more successful than others. But so are some novels!<br /><br />Kind regards<br /><br />Thom BrayThom "Pappy" Bhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07989134791098075882noreply@blogger.com